S4 E69: Making the business case to support parents and prevent burnout
with parental leave advocate Jeremy Smith
Key Takeways
I worked for a large financial institution and the policy at that point was to take 12 weeks regardless of gender, so you could take up to 12 weeks. At that point in time where I was in my career, was probably watching too much Mad Men, et cetera, and I only took six of the 12 weeks, which at the time felt prudent. In hindsight, a great regret of mine. So that was my first paternity leave experience, and I became an advocate in the space upon my second paternity leave when my son was born in 2017. So by that point I was still at the same institution and the policy had been extended to 16 weeks, again, regardless of mom, dad, whatever. And at that point I had decided to take the entire leave.
I was one of the first people in the company as a dad to take the full leave and it was a very uncomfortable position. I was very concerned about career blowback, comments, pressures, et cetera. My manager at the time told me that when his son was born, he took two days off and here I was, about to go away for four months.
I am an advocate of taking the full benefit that you are given. I think it's the time that you can't get back. It's invaluable. There's umpteen studies saying and explaining how dads were more involved at the beginning, stay more involved 15 years down the road. There's a whole host of benefits to it, obviously. But yeah so I was very uncomfortable with taking that leave, but ultimately did it and it worked out fantastically. So I started speaking publicly about that experience and trying to help dads get over the fear of taking it.
It certainly impacted my near term compensation, my bonus that year was reduced specifically because I took the leave, and that had to do with the structure of the company and the fact that there was a certain pool of money, and I heard that behind closed doors, there was absolutely, the argument made that it doesn't matter what you do while you're here. If you're not here for a third of the year, then we can't consider you a top performer. It absolutely impacted certain relationships I had at work.
It's those perceptions and how those flow down to different levels of management that make it a really complicated issue. It's very difficult. And that's where you need a clear structure and a corporate backbone that supports things in certain ways. That's how things change. And unfortunately, I was probably more at the bleeding edge of that shift which is still happening and will be happening in the US for years to come, many years most likely. So yeah there were impacts. I'd like to pretend there weren't, but there were, I will say again that at the end of the day, it was a hundred percent worth it and I wouldn't change it regardless of those negative repercussions.
I think advocacy at the end of the day, has to come from an individual, right? And these are the things that happen in private conversations where you say what you really think and not necessarily what is expected or maybe what has been said previously which is extremely challenging and I understand that not everyone wants to be or should be an advocate. It's not for everyone to go around with a flag saying, I support this. I think the important thing is if you do, and if you're not comfortable really speaking out about your perspective on it, just be the voice of reason in conversations. You can play a devil's advocate role. And be an advocate. Just a counter opinion that maybe goes more towards the favoring of parental leave, et cetera. It's a good voice to have. And, I think ultimately that is what's gonna bring about change.
There's some large institutions that are very interested in changing the conversations within their companies that are willing to host these conversations. A lot of times we're working with ERG groups that'll bring us in to, to speak on the topic. And, I think for corporations encouraging people to turn out to those events is part of changing the mindset and the attitude.
It's that the industries and sectors where you tend to have a more youthful driving base. In technology, the average age of managers, et cetera, tends to be younger just by nature of the business. And in those situations, I think you tend to see change more quickly, and you tend to see a reassessment of what drives benefits within the company. Those companies oftentimes offer bigger benefit packages, more broad packages, things that you might not expect to receive, pet insurance, for example. So they tend to be a little bit farther ahead, in changing what is considered the norm around parental leave.
I think part of it is generational. I think as millennials come on board and are driving more of the workload and rise to positions of power. Hopefully we'll see a faster acceleration in the change that needs to happen. But it's so complicated because I think at the end of the day in America, we tend to think of things in terms of returns. It always comes down to why would we do that? What's the benefit? And in Europe it's more of a conversation around quality of life and societal benefits. And in America you almost have to tie a dollar value to something to make it move.
Retention of employees is a huge reason to offer extended leaves. Huge reason. The parents are experiencing radical change in their lives to the point where flexibility and leave, et cetera, are considered reasons to stay with a company. And I think changing the mindset of it's just someone getting time off from work to no, this is a benefit that receiving it builds loyalty, it builds retention, and that saves the company money over time. I think putting more raw economics around that will help change. It will require effort and research and things that need to happen, but I think that'll really move the needle especially in some of the more stalwart industries.
It's just more about making that information available and having people within organizations, demand it and point to it. So I think there are concrete examples where that work already exists. And can be leveraged for change within organizations. But again, it takes advocates within the organizations to do that. And I think one of the things that Lori highlights a lot is around those ERG groups. And how that's probably the best avenue towards trying to influence change today within a corporation.
If you're claiming to value an ERG and you're expecting employees who step up or even are voluntold to do it right then if that's expected to be 20% of their time, then you should compensate them as if it's 20% of their time. think it's probably just an instance of well run companies that are willing to do that and ones who don't value it as much, but it does it truly always comes down to the economics. It feels like where, until someone's willing to quantify these benefits, It's hard to see how management will take them as seriously as they do other things. And in their defense, that's the scorecard they're graded on oftentimes. Especially at a public company.
During Covid and work from home, every time I went to fill up on my cup with water, my son would ask to play with me and I would have to say, No I'm working. I'm so sorry. I really want to, but I can't. And so there was this whole weird boundary setting that needed to happen and we're just doing it on the fly. As you know, everyone was doing everything on the fly then. So I think all of that just led to a lot of very difficult moments.
So I think during those times we were both experiencing burnout in very different ways, and it was very hard to not feel like you were the victim because we were both victims in a lot of ways, and the kids were too. So things that we instituted during that period number one was a bailout word. So I'm a huge fan of this. I encourage everyone to do this. If you are around impressionable young minds and with your family and you have just, you've hit your limit, right? You're stressed out, you're burnout you just can't handle with one more, Dad, can I have a snack moment? Whatever it is, just have a word where you can say it and you can walk away and the other person knows that they are now in charge to step in and take over, et cetera. So really good mechanism for keeping things cool. When times are difficult. But more than that, it's just a small example of communication, right? And it's always about communication. It always comes back to communication and whether or not you can be honest about what you need in certain moments and then also understanding and listening to give your spouse or partner what they need in those difficult moments too.
How my wife, helped me to be a better dad was to just give me more control, to make my own decisions around parenting. So I don't do things the way she does all the time. I didn't change a diaper the way she did. I don't feed the kids the same way she does. I don't talk to them the same way she does. I'm different. It's just about being willing to be there and allow someone else to be a parent in a different way than you.
I think what I would want for the future is a more holistic view of people and a bigger focus on the quality of life. The things that are held up as ideals are starting to be challenged in a way that maybe they haven't before. I think can be a catalyst for good. I hope my kids have four day work weeks. I think we would make far greater advancements if people had more freedom to pursue their interests and not just what financially makes the most sense.
Five years ago I was able to take a four month paternity leave, and I think if you were on the clock 10 years ago, you wouldn't have believed that was gonna happen at a major financial institution in this country. So I think having experienced personally that progress, I'm very hopeful that we'll continue in that direction and it gives me a lot of joy to be in the space. I'm very involved with Lori's Group Mindful Return. We have tons of dads who come into the courses and share with me similar beliefs to what we talked about today and just their hope and how they feel about things that I don't think would've been discussed openly 10 years ago, 20 years ago. So I'm very optimistic.
Bio
Jeremy Smith is the co-creator and moderator of the Mindful Return Working Dad Course where he guides new dads to an optimized and valuable paternity leave. He is the father of two incredible kids and took two extended leaves around the births of both. This was something he wrestled with at the time, as it wasn’t (and still isn’t) fully supported in the world of American finance. With a belief that more resources supporting dads are needed, Jeremy began writing and speaking as an advocate of fathers in the workplace. This led him to team up with Lori Mihalich-Levin at Mindful Return where they have guided hundreds of fathers through the changing landscape of paternity leave and flexible work arrangements.
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