S4 E65: Changing systems at home and work to prevent burnout
with equality expert Jago Brown
Key Takeways
I wasn't sure exactly what a burnout is I woke up and I couldn't speak, couldn't do anything really. And so three months, then I was off work trying to piece back together how I felt. And it's anxiety I've lived with ever since and had to learn how to manage it. Life has been hard since. We know the signs to look for if I'm starting to struggle, I know what to do now. And occasionally I get overwhelmed with all the things that are going on. I think what's interesting is recently though all the work I'm doing and I've got a lot on. I'm actually not feeling the same because I feel like I've got the psychological safety I think, which you talk about, which it probably didn't have in parts of my life at the time. So I'm really enjoying feeling that I found a purpose. And a real passion for the work that I'm doing now.
I didn't talk about it very much for a long time, but then more people started talking about their mental health and it helps. So I started talking about it a bit more and being more open. It helps to know, I think it helps if you're working with me or, know me or know people, it helps to understand people, doesn't it? And previously, I was in an environment where that was, borderline, maybe toxic, but really hardcore, very difficult, didn't really understand no, no understanding of personal needs or family life or anything, anything like that. It was quite hard. So there was no space for it there.
We always treated our relationship very equally and as a team. But we worked really hard early on at communication skills. We learn a lot from each other. We say thank you for everything all the time. We have lots of systems in place. We use for big projects, we have a project management system which people think strange. I don't think that's strange. I think we're all brilliant at delegating and managing projects and managing stuff at work. And then we seem to go home and think you can't use the same theories.
We see it more as shift work because someone's on shift. And then I'll be away for a week. She's away for a week at the moment you've got to do everything. So we have never really split our jobs there which means you've got to do everything. I think the most important thing I think we've always talked about is the mental load. And so not just the physical work in the home, the emotional labor the third shift, all that stuff we talk about a lot. And so we've always shared that and had little systems for that. So I think where we are now is we know that it ebbs and flows because of life and our positions and the work we're doing and whether we've had another kid and all those things. But actually it's been pretty equal for a long time and I think it's made us very understanding of each other and very happy actually to be fair.
And there's a massive societal expectations over who does what in home and whether you should or shouldn't. The biggest problems is actually men don't get penalized by society for not doing stuff in the home. Women do get penalized. And if you take the household balance calculator, you'll get an insight. It takes a few minutes. You'll get an insight into the amount of hours of work that needs to be done and how much you are doing and what you're doing and how you could maybe change it.
If you look at the UK, we have shared parental rights. But the take up is just under 2% at the moment of men doing it. In Sweden, there's a use it or lose it scheme. So if you want to take nine months and most companies pay you fully the take ups 90%. And so I don't think there's a fundamental difference in society between Sweden and the UK for example. So pushing for those things I think is really important.
In the UK, flexible working is a legal requirement, so all companies have one. You have the right to ask for it. Men are five times less likely to get a flexible working request agreed. So women get flexible working which keeps women less visible, less in the office, less likely to get the tasks that men get because they're in the office, so less likely to be promoted. And because men don't get flexible working, their wives have to do it, so they need the flexible work, and so they end up working flexibly so the cycle continues.
Actually, the pay gaps will get worse this year or certainly over the next couple of years because there are fewer women probably now going into leadership roles because of this push for flexible working and men are more likely to be brought back to the office, basically. Only 24% of managers are trained on flexible working on how to listen to and deal with the flexible working requests.
Lots of people we speak to, they get that having diversity of thought gets you to make better decisions. It makes sense to most people. But they genuinely don't know how to do it. There is some discrimination, there's no doubt about that, but most of it isn't, and most of it is inequality. Lots of other factors that aren't you. You haven't done this. We've all done this together and this is how we should look at it. So I think changing the culture, normalizing it, expecting it, expecting them to be part of their process. I just think the bit around getting men to be part of it which is definitely needed to change the societal bit is more difficult for an organization to do because it's a societal issue, not just an organizational issue.
Having been a stay at home dad, it's a very female environment. It's not easy to bake into. There's bias there as well. So I experienced lots of bias and sexism. I'm not disadvantaged by it because I'm a man, but it doesn't mean it's not there and it's not keeping men from doing it. So it's important that we understand that. So when companies get involved in that part and they've got to model that behavior. So they've gotta start with, prominent people doing the same thing, modeling that behavior. They can change. And I think organizations themselves. So the way they can then support it is they can have things like male support groups, they can have parenting groups that encourage men to be part of it. They can start male ally groups, there's some good research data around what they can do, both for men and for women.
The biggest killer of men under 45 in UK is suicide. And men are struggling with lots of things. And I think there, there seems to be good evidence that having an equal home makes everyone happier. It gives you a better relationship with your kids. If you really approach it and take time to understand it and work hard at it, and your partner is willing to do that with you, then I think you can just be a lot happier. You can just be a lot happier. All the data's there that if you get more involved and talk about it, you're much more likely to protect your mental health. So it's a win win.
And then there's strains on men to be breadwinners. There's toxic work cultures the culture of overworking that affects men because they're in this feeling of, I've got to be the breadwinner. It's much better for their mental health that they get off that cycle and get into a more, relaxed, more flexible environment so that they can spend more time with family, or not just family doing the things they want to do, which often men don't either do. And all of that understanding allows men to talk. The problem affects women financially and in the workplace, but actually doesn't make men happy.
There's a sort of myth about women being maternal, and when it comes to parenting, they just know better than men, which I get to a certain point for a few weeks, but after that, parenting is a long job of many years, of many different challenges. If you don't do any of it you won't learn how to do it. You started a cycle of not giving each other the support you could be giving. And we're all making mistakes. So don't make it your project because if your partner doesn't get involved, they then won't know what to do. Don't know how to settle the kid, don't know how to do the other stuff, don't know which yogurt to get. All that stuff matters. And if you don't spend any time doing it, then you won't be able to do it. Cause you haven't learnt all those skills, have you? It's a learnt skill. Parenting. and that narrative isn't helpful to anyone, that women are just automatically better at every part of parenting. Just doesn't help anyone, I don't think.
Bio
Jago works in the international education sector organising organising English language travel opportunities to under 18’s and is a board trustee of the UK's National association for language travel, English UK. He’s a father of 3, a working parent and has been a stay-at-home dad. He has a passion for normalising the role men have in childcare, unpaid work and gender equality. Alongside his day job he is also Accreditation Champion at 'Lead5050', an organisation promoting equality in leadership, certifying organisations on thier approach to gender equity and helping them to close gender pay gaps. He is also a trustee of the charity and campain group 'Equality Starts at Home'.
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